4K TVs

[Jim_Mcdonaugh]

I had a good laugh reading some articles today. Some idiots are already buying this crap.

[Jari_Kovalainen]

4K TVs are not "crap". The problem is obviously content - we need native 4K releases etc. If you want to be early adopter and you've some extra cash, go for it. They're not that expensice anyway.

I'm pretty sure that Jim was yelling "crap" to HDTV, "crap" to Blu-ray, "crap" to 3D, "crap" to this-and-that. Why don't you just keep your old DVD player and be happy?

[Jim_Mcdonaugh]

4K TVs are not "crap". The problem is obviously content - we need native 4K releases etc. If you want to be early adopter and you've some extra cash, go for it.

By the time 4K content exists, those TVs gonna be absolete.

If you want to be early adopter and you've some extra cash, go for it.

Why would any sane person gonna adopt such tech now? What for? Just to show his dick?
There's no picture improvement anyway. Infact, those TVs got some serious issues with picture quialty.

They're not that expensice anyway.

Well, ~10K bucks for a decent set... Sure, any bum can get it.

I'm pretty sure that Jim was yelling "crap" to HDTV, "crap" to Blu-ray, "crap" to 3D, "crap" to this-and-that.

Well, HDTV sucks to me, never watch it. And 3D IS crap, I'll never change my position.
Sitting in darkness with those stupid, cheap-ass glasses like a moron, and having a headache after some time... No thanks, I'll pass on that mine field.

Why don't you just keep your old DVD player and be happy?

Heh, I have more BR discs then you, bud, rest assured. I don't even recall the last time I bought a DVD...

BTW my VERY old Marantz DVD player is still alive and kicking. I keep it at my low-tech sex crib!

[Chris_Xa]

A reprint of my http://www.dvdcompare.net/forums/phpbb3 ... 20#p127459 post.

Had an opportunity to test a bluray disk (SILENCE OF THE LAMBS) on a 4K tv (think it was a Sony). Tested one particular scene - to check the newspaper article to the RIGHT of the main newspaper "Bill Skins Fifth" article (at appx 5:38 of the HD film). On my 1080p display, I can almost make out the words but definitely cannot read them (ie the newspaper article to the RIGHT). I guess any display that can let you read that particular article (on the RIGHT side of the scene), is probably good enough at least.

Wondered if upconverted 1080p on a ULTRA HD display will make those words readable. Unfortunately, NO difference in that scene whatsoever: they had the same blurriness & detail as seen on the 1080p display. So ULTRA HD upscaling does nothing from what I could see - at least in this instance.

After coming home, wondered if the upscaling had even been turned on that TV, for there was no difference at all (in general) vs a 1080p display. The shop salesperson even advised (and showed) how badly standard definition content looks, as 576PAL/480NTSC has to be "filled in/converted" to 4096 (an ~8x increase)... The TV channels did not look appealing at all - infact started making me think back to VHS displays...

They're not a bad technology. But like PS4 & Xbox One, until content arrives they're kinda pointless having at this stage. Plus current bluray disks don't have enough diskspace to fit Ultra HD content, so we'll also have to wait for the next medium studios will have to agree on before they start publishing their titles in the format.

[Jim_Mcdonaugh]

My buddy got one for 9K bucks just a few days ago. Junk, worthless pile o sh-t. Picture qualty is very poor. I honestly didnt expect it to be like that...
Excessive clouding (impossible to watch B/W movies or any dark scenes), and jerky, unnatural movements. Plasma TVs are still the best.

[Luke_Jones]

4K Blu-ray is officially on the way. According to Victor Matsuda, Chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association Global Promotions Committee, the BDA expects the specs for 4K Blu-ray to be finalized in the first half of 2015, paving the way for commercial availability by the end of the year. This means we can expect to see actual 4K Blu-ray movies and players available in stores by Christmas next year.

Apart from the jump to 4K resolution (3840 × 2160p) we can also expect 4K Blu-ray to support higher frame rates (up to 60fps), an expanded color gamut along with high dynamic range (HDR), as well as HEVC/H.265 encoding to compress 4K movies more efficiently and allow for higher bit rates. The group is currently exploring the possibility of increasing the disc capacity to 66GB or 100GB.

The news was confirmed by representatives on the show floor at IFA 2014 in Berlin, which opened its doors to visitors today.

Is this really necessary so quickly? Many people are still happy to buy DVD quality and probably less and less DVD and Blu-rays are being bought because of Netflix and services like them. For me, HD only feels like it's been around for a few months, now that word is being dumped for 4K which I already hate the thought of saying.

[Jim_Mcdonaugh]

Is this really necessary so quickly? Many people are still happy to buy DVD quality and probably less and less DVD and Blu-rays are being bought because of Netflix and services like them. For me, HD only feels like it's been around for a few months, now that word is being dumped for 4K which I already hate the thought of saying.

Yeap, millions just grab 720p rips for free. 4K video makes no sense. Unless you have 150 inch or higher panel (which a few can afford). The most people stop at 42 inch.

[Chris_Xa]

Is this really necessary so quickly? Many people are still happy to buy DVD quality and probably less and less DVD and Blu-rays are being bought because of Netflix and services like them. For me, HD only feels like it's been around for a few months, now that word is being dumped for 4K which I already hate the thought of saying.

Yeap, millions just grab 720p rips for free. 4K video makes no sense. Unless you have 150 inch or higher panel (which a few can afford). The most people stop at 42 inch.

Agree with you both...

but remember the ball has to begin rolling sometime...

And the sooner they finalise (who knows how long that will take) a format & specs, THEN studios can begin porting over all the (quite the few) 4K-masters/restorations films.

True it will appeal to a relatively few, but by that stage (maybe in 3-4 years?), bluray will have been appx 12+ years old (about the same as DVD-to-bluray), so it will be time for something new anyway.

[Alister_Manson]

I doubt any more disc-based formats will ever be introduced, it'll just be a case of everything being downloaded/streamed. At the end of the day most people just don't have space for tons of discs, and for those who don't like owning them it's a lot less of a hassle to just download/stream a movie than travel to a shop, rent a disc and then have to return it. So the future will pretty much be huge files downloaded to huge hard drives. Blu Ray will probably stick around and become 4K friendly through use of more layers per disc (apparently they can hold 4 or 5 layers) but that will be solely the preserve of die-hard home theater enthusiasts, while everyone else will just watch fuzzy overcompressed (and mostly illegal) s**t quality rips just like they do now.

[Chris_Xa]

I doubt any more disc-based formats will ever be introduced, it'll just be a case of everything being downloaded/streamed. At the end of the day most people just don't have space for tons of discs, and for those who don't like owning them it's a lot less of a hassle to just download/stream a movie than travel to a shop, rent a disc and then have to return it. So the future will pretty much be huge files downloaded to huge hard drives. Blu Ray will probably stick around and become 4K friendly through use of more layers per disc (apparently they can hold 4 or 5 layers) but that will be solely the preserve of die-hard home theater enthusiasts, while everyone else will just watch fuzzy overcompressed (and mostly illegal) s**t quality rips just like they do now.

Can't disagree with that. My (and maybe Alister's, if he's also in Oz) problem is the limited data allowance/bandwidth (& speeds) we have down under. Nowhere-near-capable of streaming 4K content IMO. Also prefer the higher-audio-fidelity that disks provide, whereas getting 5.1 sound from a download-storage device (eg PC) is a pain - considering the optical/coax-outs (eg on PC motherboards) don't have the bandwidth for full uncompressed PCM 5.1+ audio.

[Alister_Manson]

I'm in New Zealand so it's even worse for internet speeds than in Australia Also PC speakers tend to be incredibly bad, at least most PCs these days have an HDMI output available. Every set of PC speakers i've ever heard generates a horrible sub-sonic bass throb which ruins the sound and gives me a headache, and they never seem to include any kind of frequency crossover hardware so it just ends up sounding like sonic muck. But as we all know, 99% of people don't give a toss about such technical quibbles. In fact, many seem to take some sort of perverse pride in the fact, they pretty much view people like us as some kind of OCD weirdos

[Davy_Lee]

I agree with your opinions about the 4K hype. I have had good and bad experiences of watching movies on five home video formats over the last three decades: VHS (and Betamax), Laserdisc, VCD, DVD and BD. Now that 4K is approaching, I am not as excited as I was when blu-rays were introduced. The thought of having to upgrade my receiver, speakers, tv, BD player and its auxiliaries and movie collection to be able to enjoy 4K blu-rays just does not sound right, not to mention the cost!

Technological breakthrough in the home video industry is inevitable. They can entice the market with whatever new technologies they want to offer but the manufacturers definitely do not have control over our buying decision, which all depends on our own personal preference of watching movies at home in the best format we could afford.

I believe 4K and all its advantages will not give a huge difference if we choose to watch blu-rays on a television less than 60". Only those who have a dedicated room for a home theatre studio (with the required room dimension) or a living room or bedroom big enough to accommodate the optimum watching distance will enjoy the full benefits of 4K blu-rays. I've read over-praising comments of avid blu-ray collectors on one site about this 4K wonder. They seem to be forgetting the fact that 4K blu-rays with its ultra high definition video need to be viewed on a big enough television or screen AND at a proper watching distance. Imagine watching a 4K movie on a 70" or bigger-sized tv at an eye-deteriorating distance of merely 2.5 metres Watching movies on a huge television or screen at home is a dream come true for any movie fan but we have to consider taking good care of our eyesight too

[Chris_Xa]

...Also PC speakers tend to be incredibly bad...Every set of PC speakers i've ever heard generates a horrible sub-sonic bass throb which ruins the sound and gives me a headache, and they never seem to include any kind of frequency crossover hardware so it just ends up sounding like sonic muck. But as we all know, 99% of people don't give a toss about such technical quibbles. In fact, many seem to take some sort of perverse pride in the fact, they pretty much view people like us as some kind of OCD weirdos

Have you looked into/at the Logitech z5500 (and their successors, z5450) speakers? ( http://www.trustedreviews.com/Logitech- ... ral_review , http://www.engadget.com/products/logitech/z-5500 ) Can't say I have a problem with them, except they don't have a HDMI port (or passthru ), so I'm not getting the full bluray experience (have to resort to the 6 RCA connections instead, but still wonder if I'm getting the entire lossless stream). They're connected to PC, bluray player, game console, audio players etc (simultaneously) - however I'd be interested in your POV, considering the issues you've had with other "PC" speakers in the past.

...at least most PCs these days have an HDMI output available.

Yes they do, but I don't "get" how the bluray's audio comes through a gfx card's hdmi out *shrug*.

I agree with...opinions about the 4K hype...I believe 4K and all its advantages will not give a huge difference if we choose to watch blu-rays on a television less than 60". Only those who have a dedicated room for a home theatre studio (with the required room dimension) or a living room or bedroom big enough to accommodate the optimum watching distance will enjoy the full benefits of 4K blu-rays. I've read over-praising comments of avid blu-ray collectors on one site about this 4K wonder. They seem to be forgetting the fact that 4K blu-rays with its ultra high definition video need to be viewed on a big enough television or screen AND at a proper watching distance. Imagine watching a 4K movie on a 70" or bigger-sized tv at an eye-deteriorating distance of merely 2.5 metres Watching movies on a huge television or screen at home is a dream come true for any movie fan but we have to consider taking good care of our eyesight too

Good points, and still early days re 4K. Until there is much content available to take advantage of the resolution, it's like us talking of commercial space travel now: It's there, but we (consumers) can't use it. If/when the 4K content does appear in volume, I'm sure hardware will be in a 2nd+ generation to allow us to enjoy it, for less than what it costs now. The only other unaddressed problem for now is, how bad low-res video looks on a 4K screen (eg broadcast SD/non-1080 TV).

[Alister_Manson]

[quote="Chris_Xa]Yes they do, but I don't "get" how the bluray's audio comes through a gfx card's hdmi out *shrug*.[/quote]

I'm not too knowledgeable about such things, I just assumed they would output both video and audio like any other HDMI but I guess i'm wrong. Either way, in my view computers shouldn't be used as playback devices, for such purposes they're only useful as an intermediate to transfer files to an external device which can then be plugged into a compatible playback device. Although that said my Sony BD player supports pretty much every format but sometimes you'll get a file that's encoded in some odd way which makes it incompatible with the codec support and i'll have to play it on a computer anyway, I had this problem with a few pirated episodes of the latest Game Of Thrones season. But I very rarely watch such files as the lack of quality hurts my brain, especially during fast-moving battle scenes where the action gets reduced to a bunch of jerky pixelated nonsense by massive overcompression.

[Chris_Xa]

Yes they do, but I don't "get" how the bluray's audio comes through a gfx card's hdmi out *shrug*.

I'm not too knowledgeable about such things, I just assumed they would output both video and audio like any other HDMI but I guess i'm wrong.

Not necessarily. I've simply never had a video card with HDMI out, so I don't know if one needs to connect some kind of audio connector to the card (from the optical drive?) or whatever... and I've never read anything that refers to this, so I simply don't know. And part of the "I don't get it" issue is, how does/might the full uncompressed audio get transferred, instead of getting a cutdown/core DTS/Dobly version (as one gets when connecting the optical out from a blu player, as it's reportedly only able to carry that core stream - instead of the full stream - due to bandwidth issues)... I simply don't know what the rules are, if one wants to transfer the full audio stream inside a PC.

Either way, in my view computers shouldn't be used as playback devices, for such purposes they're only useful as an intermediate to transfer files to an external device which can then be plugged into a compatible playback device. Although that said my Sony BD player supports pretty much every format but sometimes you'll get a file that's encoded in some odd way which makes it incompatible with the codec support and i'll have to play it on a computer anyway, I had this problem with a few pirated episodes of the latest Game Of Thrones season. But I very rarely watch such files as the lack of quality hurts my brain, especially during fast-moving battle scenes where the action gets reduced to a bunch of jerky pixelated nonsense by massive overcompression.

Allow me to say that before blu, PC was my ultimate playback device: VLC for playing any format/disk (and at up to 4x speed with audio), VGA/DVI out (much better than a DVD player's component out), coax/optical out for full DTS/DolbyDigital5.1 audio stream, easy skipping & subtitling/audio options, region-free, and more. Only problems was the optical drive's extra sensitivity to disk marks/scratches, which a DVD player could ignore. At least I still use it if I wish to make A/B comparisons (image-wise) between DVD & blu (as I only have 1 blu player, and don't think a blu player upscaling a dvd image represents the dvd's source quality).

[Alister_Manson]

I'd say if you're using a 6-channel analog stream you'd get the full bandwidth for most HD streams, maybe there could be some frequencies lost with higher-rate encodes (96khz for example) but i honestly have no idea. And yes, optical/coaxial can only carry 1.5mbps DTS, Dolby Digital and PCM stereo, which makes PCM tracks a huge loser if you're stuck with one of those. That said i've tried a few different BD players and Sony is by far the best, the newer models even convert film-based NTSC DVDs to 24fps so you get to avoid that horrible 3:2 pulldown related motion-judder. By comparison, the Onkyo and Panasonic models i've used had much clunkier ugly navigation menus, a total lack of information from the on-screen display and even had the default settings in some stupid configuration which would make for a downgraded viewing experience unless one knew how to change them.. and let's face it, most people just plug it in and leave it as is.

[Chris_Xa]

I'd say if you're using a 6-channel analog stream you'd get the full bandwidth for most HD streams, maybe there could be some frequencies lost with higher-rate encodes (96khz for example) but i honestly have no idea. And yes, optical/coaxial can only carry 1.5mbps DTS, Dolby Digital and PCM stereo, which makes PCM tracks a huge loser if you're stuck with one of those.

Feel you are right. When I had connected an all-region blu player (6 audio-outs via RCA), I felt the DD51/DTS-core (also simultaneously connected via optical to another of the speakers' input) felt slightly "punchier", in a simultaneous A/B comparison... so what you right does make some kind of sense. If only Logitech upgraded the z5500 speaker console with a HDMI passthru, would not need a receiver.

Then again, isn't Dolby Atmos around the corner for yet another audio format, we'd have to worry about? Especially if/when the 4K content comes out in X years...?

That said i've tried a few different BD players and Sony is by far the best, the newer models even convert film-based NTSC DVDs to 24fps so you get to avoid that horrible 3:2 pulldown related motion-judder. By comparison, the Onkyo and Panasonic models i've used had much clunkier ugly navigation menus, a total lack of information from the on-screen display and even had the default settings in some stupid configuration which would make for a downgraded viewing experience unless one knew how to change them.. and let's face it, most people just plug it in and leave it as is.

Well, I'd bet those people don't read forums such as these.

[Jari_Kovalainen]

Then again, isn't Dolby Atmos around the corner for yet another audio format, we'd have to worry about? Especially if/when the 4K content comes out in X years...?

Like I said in the other thread, I believe Atmos requires speakers to the ceiling ("above the audience"). So it's not that Atmos arrives and "replaces" other audio formats. Not that many people are willing to add speakers to the ceiling and many don't even have space for that.

It's nice that 4K and Atmos are coming and people have options, but if people watch mainly "1080p" material (Blu-ray, some PS4/Xbox One games, HDTV/streaming) or even 720p (most PS3/Xbox 360 games), then what's the point of getting 4K TV? Simple as that, IMO.

[Chris_Xa]

Like I said in the other thread, I believe Atmos requires speakers to the ceiling ("above the audience"). So it's not that Atmos arrives and "replaces" other audio formats. Not that many people are willing to add speakers to the ceiling and many don't even have space for that.

Ceiling??? Not for me then; I'm in the boat of those people you mention here. My 5.1 speaker setup already occupies the room's top corners, so I can't see how putting ceiling speakers will make much of a change.

It's nice that 4K and Atmos are coming and people have options, but if people watch mainly "1080p" material (Blu-ray, some PS4/Xbox One games, HDTV/streaming) or even 720p (most PS3/Xbox 360 games), then what's the point of getting 4K TV? Simple as that, IMO.

You're right, it's all about choice. We are talking about the future here after all; doubt anyone's seriously thinking of getting 4K now, especially as technology constantly improves and gets cheaper. So until we have content in volume, guess it might be a moot conversation.

Interesting that games are mentioned though. Think one can already render games in 4k now, though one obviously needs an insanely expensive setup (PC+display) to render and enjoy it. Don't know if the Xone and PS4 console video-out ports are 4K compatible, or whether it was prerelease hype to make me think they might be forward-compatible. But any realistic 4K action I guess is happening in the gamespace, so it will be interesting to see how that pans out, how/if it does indeed catch on - an interesting litmus test case.